Edit: Very funny to see all the comments saying that the EHB is. Gwd style drops are 19k coins or a few dwarf weed seeds. Potential small Runelite qol updates with DT2 bosses. The player will need 3 fire nerves, 2. And yeah, Midir is my least favorite boss I've ever fought in a Dark Souls game (BoC isn't really a boss and doesn't. it's to be bis ancient armour. The post-quest versions are significantly harder. On top of this, even if I started. Fight caves are great for t4 frags. What mechanics do you want to see from the upcoming DT2 bosses; assuming they are smoke, shadow, blood and ice E. 0 damage, can be killed with less than 5m in gear, good drop rates. All bosses in God Wars Dungeon 1 follow the same drop rate as their items. The ring requires players to have killed Vardorvis at least once to wear; attempting to wear it otherwise will result in a game message in the chatbox stating The ring slips off your finger. Let's pretend that instead of being overly cautious with drop rates, Jagex released the content with low-ball drop rates. My excuses i interpreted it differently. Leviathan – 1/96. Fix pls. Whisperer: specials (orb-stepping, hiding order behind pillar, which mini whisperer to hit), pray switching while running. Far too common drop rate, people were saying to. This is a Drop Calculator for Diablo 2 Resurrected. 25 (depending on path invos this could change) so a staff is roughly 1/270 at that rate. POV: You just started grinding the DT2 bosses. I think the difficulty order goes something like (from hardest to easiest): Insanity Wardens, Akkha. I'm not talking about freak occurrences at all. Day 1 Vardorvis boss guide dt2, very basic with an example to get you through the quest and help you farm the boss afterwards :Daxe highlight shoutout molgoa. ago. Not sure if you are saying an upfront cost in general is insignificant, or the difference between Bryophyta and DT2 boss situations are, so I can’t really comment on that. The reward pool is larger than a raid release and it's simply a quest with a few demi-bosses attached. He was one of four individuals entrusted with a medallion - the means to open the Ancient Vault where the Elder Horn was sealed - alongside Perseriya, Duke Sucellus, and the Whisperer, who were all high-ranking personnel in the Empire. For now Let's try and enjoy those well made bosses! nex was bumped from /43 -> 53 within hours of release then a year (?) later back down to /43. Ring Completion KC: 765. " ^ Jagex. 5k tokens is roughly 8. Not only that but as time goes on more guides are released and more people do the boss. Today we’re asking you to give the greenlight to a handful of exciting new offerings that will drop from the four fearsome bosses of Desert Treasure II – The Fallen Empire. Between Duke, The Whisperer, Vard and The Leviathan which one do you personally feel strikes the best balance between design, reward, mechanics, challenging, fun, etc. The artefacts can be handed in to MTA in. The other 26. DT2 does this well, because not only does it not shit out resources like a boss such as muspah or zulrah, but it also has a clamped and consistent drop rate for the big ticket uniques, which means that as long as you are persistent, you will get the drop, as opposed to something like the DWH grind, which people have gone 4-6x over rate on and. 000028%. Join us for game discussions, tips and…jagex loves to make bosses drop gear that ends up being BiS for that boss. Player completes Desert Treasure II - The Fallen Empire, and begins fighting one of the post-quest bosses. Keep in mind that we might fine-tune the drop rates even further down the line. In the context of a monster, the rare drop table must be hit first, which in this example has a 1/50 chance, then it must hit the sapphire's 1/4 after that. They are basically slayer/barrage training robes. - Lower killcount at reg bosses. 44. instead of scaling a flat rate it should scale like this 4% 6% 7. I think they missed the mark the the anti dry mechanic. Virtus is too cheap too. Jagex still showed the cheater on the world first too which is funny. NobudyKnowsWho • 3 mo. Wisp: 45hr @ 20kc/hr. valdo33 • 5 days ago. Drop rates are based on mains, and irons just exist within that framework. r/EASportsFC. If you wanna go to the bosses now, you need a mentality of: "okay, i am going to camp 500+ of these". New DT2 Drop Rates EXPLAINED in 3 Minutes (Rings/Vestiges) OSRS. Control Points summon enemy leader bosses which can also drop loot. The chance of going dry at Whisperer is also a lot lower due to the new drop mechanism. Nexling is based on 1/500, rolled independently from the Unique Table listed above. DT2 Drops will likely go up in price. Join. 🏜️ As the sands stir once more, it's almost time to uncover some long-lost treasures. 28 July 2023 The Whisperer should no longer fire more attacks in a row than intended. 12. I've been liking this idea I had for the upcoming four DT2 bosses to have a rare drop on their tables, being an untradeable item that can be handed in at MTA for Pizzazz Points. I know I was getting around a 1/30 to 1/40 drop rate for tier 1 combat. To learn more about how to fight each of. 1. With a 1/81 unique rate, any virtus piece is 1/648. TTC Ring: 29 hours @ 26kc/hr. Pet hunters are often late game players who are willing to spend to speed up lengthy grinds (potentially make pets drop up. Now for most PVMers, these values are on the low side for items. Business, Economics, and Finance. Less likely to go on long dry streaks essentially, the ring could also be more common then the other uniques. Now lets realize that the drop rates right now are super rare like everyone is saying they are. This data is used on about 280 drop table articles. maryprox-6782 October 16, 2021, 11:59pm #1. 769. I’m pretty certain that’s exactly how they are going to work. I've talked to more than a dozen people and they have close to similar rates, one guy had 2 in 5000 crabs. DT2 Bosses Can't Drop Ring Vestiges Looking at a variety of communities and clan chats, not a single ring vestige drop has been seen. Once the player rolls the entire drop table, roll 1/2,500 for Lil'viathan and 1/40 for a clue scroll. Note: All Awakened bosses have 3x the chance to hit the unique table. 55 times more common than getting no drops. By creating a requirement of 3 rolls to get the drop, without any indicator to know how many rolls you've succeeded on, it creates a worse feeling of hopelessness when going dry. 16 May 2017. See more posts like this in r/2007scape. There are two primary data sources for this project: Approximately 800 million kills from the Loot Tracker plugin on the open-source third-party client RuneLite. I heard the loot jingle (same as muspah) even though I didn't get a unique. The new boss hype will die down but everyone will still need rings so theyll go up again. “Nightmare/PNM part 2” keeps getting thrown out as a comparison to DT2 drop rates, but they also share the same concept of mostly sidegrading. Desert Treasure 2. then i went to leviathan and was like what the fuck. Using that '1/400' original example, your odds of having the drop by a given kc would look something like this. The problem there is that adjusting drops to make things less common is much more likely to piss people off than if you improve the rates. Leviathan - 1/120. 71% death rate when excluding Kourend and Trollheim with ultracompost. Ex: ~128kc x3 at DKs then do 1k kc each at DT2 bosses just for rings. Join. Phase one:. 700kc isnt even that much to go on rate, yet it feels to actually do the boss for that long when all u get is chump money along the way. New items are also always going to drop in value as more of them come into the game since the game has basically no item sinks. This also has the benefit of helping to add value to new boss drop tables in addition to the new proposed uniques, so they can be less reliant on resource drops for profit. That’s what we have to look forward to. The community has spoken: we want GWD style drop tables. A 1/400 drop rate would be a 1/80000 on your first kill, but by 200, you'd be rolling a 1/400, and if you hit the 'dry' threshold of 400kc, you're not up to twice as likely to get the drop each kill. They are basically slayer/barrage training robes. Average completion time (excluding Virtus) for each of the new DT2 bosses: 220. and an exotic piece isn't even guaranteed. I wouldnt be selling rings for 100-200 mil but hey i could be wrong! I just dont think 50 hours of basically raid-level bosses is worth that lol. Wasn’t this confirmed earlier from that guy that got ring? "Confirmed" is a very loose word. But I also hand-waved the original sanity check, which also isn't that accurate either, so let's be a little more thorough: Fang does indeed average a 29, at 74. Trivia [edit | edit source]This content is 72 days old and this dude is a few days away from breaking the 10k. Seen a lot of posts about people being burnt out and quitting OSRS. Bosses do not drop anything, although there are resource chests where players can obtain potions and food for upcoming encounters; after defeating Verzik Vitur, the entrance to. LOOT FROM 1000 VARDORVIS - OSRS DT2 Loot from 1000 Vardorvis the week after release!. ago. Keep in mind that we might fine-tune the drop rates even further. r/PFSENSE. The mechanics of spreading out the completion goal across multiple. 5 times longer to complete one full agent contract if you buy to tier 10. Now the drop rate do look like they might just be too low in general, based on early sample data, but that's a separate problem from this one specific issue. They’re are intended to have a gwds style drop table which is great given how other bosses drop tables are. They're from the same boss at the same drop rate. Ring Total Expected Time To Completion: 135 Hours. You can also expect 6 Virtus table rolls, so very close to 0 time if grinding out all rings + axe. Then I also went 300+ dry for fragments on Kraken which is supposedly tier 3. The Mule Character (mine's name is Sugomo :3) must have 255 Luck and the Drop Rate skill MAXED. Vents within the asylum will now correctly despawn when the encounter ends. Rex drop rates. Even then I'd say 1 or 2 is probably better. This works, it. 1. Ring + Axe Total Expected Time To Completion: 173 Hours. Yes and you can get spooned as early as 3kc instead of 1kc. 28 votes, 27 comments. "The Whisperer" is a siren found in the sunken cathedral of the Lassar Undercity, who is encountered during Desert Treasure II - The Fallen Empire. Drop rate for all bosses. Solo bosses that you repeatedly pound and get a kc every 3 minutes get boring real fucking quick. Vardorvis was nearly 50 hours to ring rate at 30 kph, while the other bosses we closer to 30 hours to hit ring rate. The real question is how involved the fight mechanics are for each boss and how long it takes to kill. Each of the four bosses fought after the quest will have a chance of dropping a specific item that is used to make this axe, meaning players must kill all four bosses to assemble it. Multiple pet posts here but not a single ring one. Prime drop rates. a) Just make them a straight up quest reward (quest must require rfd) (get the gloves upon completion or buy from a shop like rfd) b) Make it an untradable drop from a post quest boss (quest must require rfd) c) Make a tradable add-on to the barrows gloves as a drop from said post quest boss (in this solution the quest doesn't need to be locked. Many late game players (mains especially) completely discount and ignore the time commitment they have already put in to the game. Be sure to favorite it to come back to once you get into World Tiers 3/4 and can start tackling them. Since we’re talking about rings for DT2 Suggestion Most games such as the souls series for example allow players at least two rings. The DT2 Boss Vestige drop mechanics are disheartening . Note: the Awakened variants of these bosses have 3x the chance to hit the unique table. I like to try all the content and don't get tons of time to play, I usually do like 100 kc at loads of different bosses for fun, and pull a good at some. This means the following rates will now apply: Vardorvis – 1/136. I didn't know how to fight Awakened Leviathan so I started using my orb on random things. whisperers regular loot is actually pretty good especially if youre getting perfect kills. Mod Lottie's Twitter account. Claws and Kodai wand make sense. "Desert Treasure II - Tweaks and Drop Rates". Price is down roughly 30% and drop rate is up 30%. They are moderately harder but really the main thing is muscle memory. The. Archived from the original on 30 May 2020. RS3 leaves it up in the air Sucellus’s fate, could be. When the Leviathan is defeated, a drop will be rolled for until the roll results in a success, as described below: [1] Roll 1/96 for the tradeable unique drop table (3/96 for awakened. DT2 bosses drop torn magic scroll pieces, which when combined, create a magic scroll that can be used to unlock a new ancient magic spell. Let's use a theoretical 1/100 drop on a unique boss item. The Desert Treasure 2 Awakened Bosses present an exciting challenge for OSRS players seeking new adventures and rewards. Adjusting Vardorvis a large amount, and the others slightly seems fair to keep time to ring similar on all bosses. The post quest versions WILL be hard tho. After ~750 kills got the vestige and 1 ingot. Just to go back in and see 180 earth runes or 18k drop. This could mean that you’re more likely to make more OSRS gold by killing a specific set of bosses since the gems could have different OSRS GP values on the GE because of the demand for blood and ice spells. Farm kalphite's dpick drop. Yes and you can get spooned as early as 3kc instead of 1kc. Jagex assumes every player has max cash to enjoy the new content. Look at item trade volumes on the grand exchange database. 1 / 2. Drop rates are still estimates from wiki crowdsourcing, but let's look at the drops that are around 100k or higher from Vardorvis: Dragon dart tips, 130k average, 1/50. Even the most interesting solo boss, PNM, gets boring real quick, especially if you don't have the Tablet. 780K subscribers in the 2007scape community. I'm having a lot of fun killing the post quest bosses so I think that's a nice reward. 1. Adventurers will be able to get up to IV Nouver Sub-weapons (possible enhancements: +0, I, II, III, IV). 8% of people will go 1k dry for an enh seed. so closer to 10 years for osrs if you dont count the 6 years between 2007 and the osrs release in 2013. 0 (and continued in TU16. As of making this post, here are the prices for the Virtus drops. Once the rings stabilise and camping a single boss to secure a drop isn't as important, I'll for sure be heading to others. 49 damage per hit. Old School's most ambitious quest to date is fast approaching. For the love of god if the new bosses drop coconuts, toadflax, ranarrs, snapdragons, kwuarms, or avantoes in a large quantity then I will be positively screwed by the DT2 boss drop tablesThe ‘Awakened’ form of these bosses will be unlocked with the Awakener’s Orb, a tradeable drop available from their regular forms. ago. Hopefully the ring drop rate is figured out to make it viable and at least the pets are sick Reply. Virtus is BIS for ancients. The counter (which tracks x/3) is shared between all four bosses, so leaving one boss at 2/3 to do another boss would reset the counter, essentially throwing away 2/3 progress for the first boss The counter tracks on a per-vestige basis, so leaving one boss at 2/3 to do another boss would would allow you to go back to the first boss and finish. Duke – 1/90. If they lock in around 15M and stay there, people will buy the old rings. I know months ago weapons like YER and the crusaders crossbow were rarer than others. The rates are def 1/100 or worse. Vardorvis has terrible orb rates. Can at least some of the dt2 bosses be doable with multiple players. let's calculate this together time-wise alone and not including the 3m awakeners orb you have to use for each attempt. Tired of everyone saying agility is slow and boring. 0303%. 5erenade • 4 days ago. They currently are linear lol. Yeah. The bosses will also drop untradeable Vestiges, specific to each boss. - Components to perfect kills like don't get hit by vard spikes, don't get hit by axes, etc. I also think the ring upgrades will start around 70-100m. In comparison MM2 gives the 4 zenytes and a ballista, so for DT2 it would be the 4 rings and the prayer book at the most, but theres 8 extra rewards. With 90 Magic, player fuses Berserker icon with Ultor vestige. Additionally, Does anyone else think the bosses post quest got a little bit. Virtus Robe Top - 55m. Virtus isn't useless or niche at all, and 100m is a very good price for a mage set that's BiS for slayer and second best for staff/trident. You'll probably die 5-10 times or so before getting a post quest kill if it took you 1 or 2 tries to get the quest kill. In my opinion the drops from all new bosses are. A quick, easy reference sheet for all five bosses with embeds of all the gear that's tied to each Boss. The gap you have between you and rank 2 is insane. Many quests feature boss fights at their climaxes; such bosses are often the main antagonists of the quests or quest series, or are somehow related to the main. Download Dt2 Drop Rates Mp3. This honestly just sounds like a skill issue. ago. While not all bosses need to drop the same items, adding Jars to all boss drop tables would bring a sense of uniformity and balance to OSRS. 4 awakened orb drops, with one selling at 4m, helped. SiliskeIBS • 2 yr. 7773. Premium Powerups. Legendary Missions/Strongholds 10% Drop Chance: Liberty, Merciless, Diamondback, Sweet Dreams, Nemesis, Chatterbox, Pestilence, Dodge City Gunslinger's Holster, BTSU Gloves, Sawyer's Kneepads, Chameleon. ⏳ What rewards will the bosses drop? We want to shape them with YOU!I think a lot of it boils down to what the drop rate of the new rings are as to if the dk rings are relevant or not still. 6 reg kc to ea awakened and this is even more pronounced at bosses like Leviathan. Philadelphia 76ers. Jagex still showed the cheater on the world first too which is funny. twitch. ago. 🌏 Get Exclusive NordVPN deal here It’s risk-free with Nord’s 30-day money-back guarantee! JOIN MY DISCORD: Loot Prep with an Online Drop Simulator. I get rewarding difficult content, but getting a 55% Purple chance every raid at 400+ in big teams is absurdly common. Now for most PVMers, these values are on the low side for items. How to reroll 20+ wildy slayer tasks an hour while gaining points for your main task streak. Get Callisto, Venenatis, Vetion tasks in minutes! Spam rev tasks with a 1 in 1200 wildy weapon drop rate. Iron, couldn’t agree more. dALESOCIALS • 2 yr. And finally, the chance of hitting that 3% drop three times in a row (essentially getting a drop at 3kc) is… 0. 88 snapdragons/patch. Virtus could have been splitted between bosses, with one boss dropping all three pieces with lower chance. Players with 200. Barrows is great for tier 2, you can even set the last recall crystal to tp you to the chest. You will always end up in a situation of a partially completed ring. Whisperer, Vardorvis, Leviathan, normal Wardens. IMO standard loot should be heavily nerfed with another buff to uniques. The rare drop table or RDT is a drop table that is accessed by medium-level and high-level monsters. ^ The drop rate varies based on the player's individual performance in the raid, ranging from 1/650 (the base rate) to 1/6,500 in Normal Mode. Rough estimate of 6 hours fighting whisperer every single day with sang staff since 4 hours after the release of DT2. The four bosses are easily the hardest quest bosses to date. Makes sense. With a few players in the game, enough Magic Find and of course, some luck, you should be able to accumulate a glorious arsenal of unique and set items by farming Act Bosses. DT2 Bosses Can't Drop Ring Vestiges. Whisperer – 1/64. The other 26. which sounds kinda OP to me. People seem to be forgetting that they said the drop rates differ from boss to boss based on their kill times. . Ive also had like 3 orbs from Duke in 270 kc, so not really getting much luck. There is one that I was looking at, loot simulator at oldschool. None of the DT2 drops are worth the time investment. I dunno I have 1 orb in 210 kc at Duke, I would guess orb rates would be the same on each. Since the start of this year I. So, 1/127, 1/512, 1/1,000. Join. When ToA came out, everyone complained that the drop rates were too high. 2131/2277. There are 4 new BiS rings you can create with the unique drops from the bosses. If you want to try the fight again, you’ll need another Orb. Virtus are niche by design, ancients aren’t prominently used in pvm scenarios. Category: Mechanics. Otherwise good update. By making a 100% orb droprate, it wouldn't break the game. ago. The drop rate for the tradeable unique drop table was increased from 1/108 to 1/90. I have an average of a 4. Here's the list of rewards from DT2: Four best-in-slot rings: Ring of True Blood, Ring of True Shadow, Ring of True Smoke & Ring of True Ice. John needs to continue buffing its drop table if that's the pet rate. But anyone who thought that you could reasonably do DT2 bosses for a midgame gear upgrade, that didn’t happen. Exactly. The chance of getting a 1 kc drop at 1/33 is 3. The hardmode DT2 bosses are gonna be exclusively for cosmetics. The drop rate for the tradeable unique drop table was increased from 1/120 to 1/96. Maybe 1/250 instead of 1/750 on a standard drop table. Bosses. Vardorvis was nearly 50 hours to ring rate at 30 kph, while the other bosses we closer to 30 hours to hit ring rate. Say you roll an axe piece, you already progressed your ring, but now you can chose to either keep killing the same boss. Edit: Very funny to see all the comments saying that the EHB is wrong. They don't care about 1/1000 drop rates for mediocre virtus sets which is really disappointing because only like. Let's also assume that this boss is largely done for this drop and little else in the drop table is worth much. Most of us started to quit after rings were crashing hard and the drop rate change was the nail in the coffin. Desert Treasure II - The Fallen Empire is a grandmaster quest in the Mahjarrat series, and a sequel to Desert Treasure I. The DT2 bosses common drops have a lot of variability in terms of value, but the rares are very expensive. Hey everybody it's Dak here from TheEdB0ys and welcome to my first impressions of the DT2 bosses. he removed it. Standard system: 63% chance to. Huge Changes to DT2 Boss Drop Rates in Today's Update! #OSRS #DesertTreasure2 #Buff #DT2 #OldschoolRS. The droprates are quite low on all of it, even after buff. I can live with the pet being proportionally rarer than the other bosses', but if somebody's going to spend hundreds of hours. TTC Ring/Axe: 41 Hours @ 26kc/hr. Player breaks down the Berserker ring and receives a Berserker icon. Please help upvote for visibility! 2. ago. Since the new loot mechanic for the rings requires you to roll the invisible drop 3 times before you recieve your ring drop this is essentially preventing players from not getting spooned an item. 6 comments. I did vardorvis, the most farmed boss i guess. However, Jagex has in. Its 1/768 with the normal system. They also seems unnecessary since there are gonna be a fuck ton of other drops from the dt2 bosses including the ancient staff upgrades which is a more interesting way of giving ancients additional uses, at least on theory. . Keep in mind that we might fine-tune the drop rates even further down the line. Keep in mind that we might fine-tune the drop rates even further down the line. Green logging a boss is not the basis of a boss' drop table. . Levi: 54hr @ 25kc/hr. For example, 666 soul runes is the norm if you take damage, but once i got 1k for not taking it. Yes "True" ring drop rate is somewhat misleading as it assumes farming only that boss for all 3 Ingots and Vestige Rolls required for the ring, when the design "expects" you to move on once you get the Vestige. As you roll, you progress two independent and conflicting drop tables. 02:54 3. Still impressive that you need ~20% more KC than the "rate" at the boss to have a 50/50 shot at having the necessary drops to make the. and what’s the only weapon being dropped by the DT2 bosses? that’s right, a 2h axe. Maybe the DT2 boss drop rates are intentionally conservative with the intent of being adjusted as needed. A 1/400 drop rate would be a 1/80000 on your first kill, but by 200, you'd be rolling a 1/400, and if you hit the 'dry' threshold of 400kc, you're not up to twice as likely to get the drop each kill. My last friend that kept going was 1600 KC Leviathan with only Virtus mask and. The drop rate for the tradeable unique drop table was increased from 1/77 to 1/64. The blog now reads "With all this in mind, now that we have more information, we're changing the core unique rates (Virtus, Ingots, Vestige & Axe pieces) to be approximately 20-30% more common, depending on the boss (Vardorvis and Leviathan have received the biggest improvement). Megan Anderson Atlanta Hawks Los Angeles Lakers Boston Celtics Arsenal F. new osrs runescape quest Desert Treasure 2 - The Fallen Empireincludes these new bosses:VardorvisThe WhispererDuke SucellusThe Leviathanwill try to make loot. 2K. The post-quest versions are significantly harder. For each stack of the buff, they will gain 6% bonus Strength. 000028%. js and Bootstrap 5 . The current drop rate for seismics is 1/40 per kill, while any drygore is a 1/43 drop rate, and an ascension crossbow takes around 300 kills. tangoetuna • 2 yr. This brings the chance of a sapphire to a 1/200 drop rate for that particular monster. After completing Desert Treasure 2, the new OSRS quest, you. In a 10-man mass at Callisto for example, the drop rate is approximately 1/2000/10 = 1/20,000. Maybe the DT2 boss drop rates are intentionally conservative with the intent of being adjusted as needed. This is a small sample size, so maybe I just got extremely lucky, but 7 fights and no Niss Vestige seems a bit low. Obviously each equipped ring would need to unique. rugg0064 • 2 mo. ago. Old School RuneScape News. The reason they opted to do it with the invisible rolls is so the drop feels bigger. Rings are probably 1/256 or something while pets are 1/xK, doesn't really make sense. Whats everyone's guess on what the drop rates and defense stats in your experience with the bosses?Defender drop rates? I'm more annoyed with RS than I've ever been. For each stack of the buff, they will gain 6% bonus Strength. 26% will have hit it 10+ times. One_Case_1412 • 7 mo. Basically if you can stick to killing a DT2 boss until you get a valuable rare then it is worth it. But directly after completion you feel scammed. So I’m not complaining about the bosses. the reward quantity seem underwhelming for 4 bosses more challenging than vorkath, which I would argue is more challenging than any of the 4 main GWD bosses. You can also expect 6 Virtus table rolls, so very close to 0 time if grinding out all rings + axe. ago. g. clips. Farm The Dark Zone Get Better Loot From The Dark Zone. A 300m ring, around 1000kc for a 2-3 minute boss is just really good money per hour if you use BIS gear instead of my shitty Swamp Trident (without Venator Bow) build that gets me 3:30-4:30 minute kills. Raw shark, 100k, 1/100. Favorite Post Quest DT2 Boss. 27. ago. If these bosses were 15-20M/hour (WITH NO DEATHS), I really don’t think that would. This is as someone who did 1500 vardorvis pre update without an ultor visage. suspect-anteater 4 days ago.